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1. PlotTrap says:

   December 5, 2011 at 1:40 pm

   Don’t forget that single-target junglers will be VERY efficient in counter-jungling now that the camps bank xp/gold and you will be capable of watching your enemy jungler and as he ganks steal his camps that have been banking up.

   Reply
   • Plottrap says:

     December 5, 2011 at 2:56 pm

     Don´t forget that single target junglers will be very slow trying to clear their own jungle and by the time the go to the enemy jungle aoe hero has already cleared it.

     Reply
     • nvm says:

       December 5, 2011 at 3:07 pm

       Yep, pretty much it. Maokai for example, dominates now.

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     • Billy Bob Thorton says:

       December 5, 2011 at 3:08 pm

       Not to mention an efficient jungler is also very unlikely to have any creeps banking. Even in the old jungle it was very unlikely your jungle would let creeps sit for that long.

       Reply
       • Blargh says:

         December 6, 2011 at 2:38 am

         “Even in the old jungle” implies it was harder to keep the old jungle clear. Faster respawn times mean it’s alot harder to keep mobs cleared now.

         Reply
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2. Anon says:

   December 5, 2011 at 4:26 pm

   I found shyvana and skarner very effective now. Shyvana because of her ridiculous cleartime she has a huge timewindow to counterjungle and with redbuff and W you can still do mediocre ganks, and skarner after all the adjustements he got and with the jungle changes is finally a really good jungler choice with good ganks pre6 and crazy ganks post6

   Reply
   • Anonymous says:

     December 5, 2011 at 4:38 pm

     Shyvana can clear so fast…I clear the full jungle in 3:15 with leash and doing wolves before blue. It’s pro. She is hard to 1v1 against in the jungle and can counter jungle easy.

     With the new red buff, her E now procs red buff which helps a little, not a lot, with ganking.

     Reply
3. Montegomery says:

   December 5, 2011 at 4:40 pm

   Your comparison chart is a little misleading because idle time is not the same pre and post-remake. A wolves camp that has been idle for 40 seconds post-remake hasn’t been idle at all pre-remake. If you adjust the chart to account for this it looks like the following:

   0:40: 120xp/31g | 86xp/32g | 89exp/32g
   1:00: 100xp/26g | 72xp/27g | 74xp/27g
   2:00: 71xp/18g | 48xp/18g | 49xp/18g
   3:00: 52xp/13g | 36xp/13g | 42xp/14g (half bank)
   4:00: 41xp/11g | 29xp/11g | 37xp/15g (full bank)

   So you can see that the old jungle is actually well ahead on exp in all shown cases, and only behind more than 1g on a full bank. The only time the new jungle is ahead on both is if idle time is significantly less then 40 seconds.

   Reply
   • RovingBlade says:

     December 5, 2011 at 5:34 pm

     I have no idea where these numbers come from, but I think you misunderstood the meaning of my data. The idea is, if in a span of 15 minutes you kill the wolf camp 3 times, then the equation to calculate how much gold or xp you earn per minute is (total camp value)*3 / (15 minutes).

     Does anyone else see an error with my data?

     Reply
     • Montegomery says:

       December 5, 2011 at 7:14 pm

       I may be confused, but I was attempting to comment on the “COMPARISON OF GOLD AND EXPERIENCE PER MINUTE” chart, for which you used the following calculation for the 0:00 pre-Volibear patch data point (according to the paragraph preceding the chart):

       “201xp / 1.666min which is 120xp/min”

       That’s a wholly different equation from the one you provided in the comment. However, the problem wasn’t your math, but in how you framed the chart.

       Clearing the wolves camp upon spawn pre-Volibear patch is inherently different from doing so post-patch/hotfix because it occurs 40 seconds later. This is important because the basic tasks that create idle time (recalling, ganking, etc.) are essentially identical in duration both pre and post-patch. So if you pursue a task that takes X time, the amount of idle time post-patch is X, but the amount of idle time pre-patch is X-40.

       That is to say if one spends 40 seconds ganking, post-patch that’s 40 seconds of delay, but pre-patch that’s no delay at all. That’s why comparing the 0:00 values pre and post-patch directly as you do in your chart is misleading.

       Reply
       • RovingBlade says:

         December 5, 2011 at 8:37 pm

         Ah, I think I understand what you are saying now, but I also think that I have taken this information into account. Let me outline exactly how I calculate each data point.

         First, the time in the first column is the “time left idle”, meaning the if the camp spawns at 5:13 and you clear it at 5:57, the idle time would be 0:44. This time is calculated the same way for any respawn rate. It is simply (time killed) – (time spawned).

         This means that each data point is calculated with the following equation (where value is either gold or xp):

         (Total camp value) + (Bank value) / (Respawn Time) + (Idle Time)

         The bank value calculation is:

         if (2:00 <= (Idle Time) <= 4:00)
         (Bank Value) = (BankIncreasePerMinute) * ((IdleTime) – 2:00)
         else
         (Bank Value) = 0

         ————————————-

         You can see that the respawn rate is included in the calculation so presenting the data points for each patch in relation to “Idle Time” is actually consistent.

         Reply
         • Montegomery says:

           December 5, 2011 at 9:29 pm

           Your equation is correct and you did not make any errors in your calculations as far as I am aware. However, the manner in which you present your data remains inconsistent because you are not accounting for *absolute time* as a part of your chart.

           Consider, in absolute terms, when row 1:00 happens in the new jungle versus the old jungle (assume you’re awaiting a respawn after an instant clear at 1:40). For the new jungle 1:00 occurs at 3:40, but for the old jungle it occurs at 4:20! By comparing the new and the old jungle at 1:00, you are unintentionally assuming that whatever is delaying our jungler from returning to wolves takes 40 seconds longer pre-patch, despite the identical start time!

           Put another way, we’re assuming the jungler is clearing the first spawn and then being delayed for X amount of time before they return to clear. But with the chart organized by relative time rather than absolute time, X for the old jungle is 40 seconds longer! This skews your comparison the same way starting a runner 40 meters back would skew a footrace.

           Again, your math, calculations and equations are impeccable, but the manner in which you are presenting your data is leading you to erroneous conclusions.
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   • RovingBlade says:

     December 6, 2011 at 1:46 am

     And I finally see your point. Yes, this presentation does put a slight skew on it and assume some additional time for the pre-volibear jungle. That is a mistake on my part. I would change my presentation, but I’ve been busy testing the banking system in more detail and I have discovered that it is more complex than I initially thought. I’ll be presenting my results as soon as I can compile them and format them.

     Thanks for your input on this, and I’m taking some comfort in the fact that my conclusion about the new jungle only presenting more xp and gold if cleared in under 25 seconds still holds true.

     Reply
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5. Anonymous says:

   December 5, 2011 at 5:06 pm

   shaco can clear jungle all the major camps roughly 2:15, shortly after blue spawns. That might contribute a bit to your article

   Reply
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6. iz says:

   December 5, 2011 at 5:11 pm

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7. Agososnu says:

   December 5, 2011 at 8:21 pm

   Just for some more food for thought just did the same route as you did but with my jungle-Raka build and cleared the jungle path on her at 3:40, so if Soraka can clear the jungle faster than some single target junglers there might be a balance issue.

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8. vc says:

   December 5, 2011 at 9:09 pm

   Hey, this post is missing something important: banking doesn’t begin until about the 3 minute mark or so, so that you don’t get banked creeps on your initial clear. Once the game is beyond this point, it only takes about 45 seconds for creeps to start banking.

   Reply
   • Anonymous says:

     December 5, 2011 at 10:19 pm

     all math craft aside.. I found that once banking started after initial clear… Banking a mob would give u same xp as killing it twice… Meaning that AOE fast ikller that are killing them as they spawn, are getting same gold xp as those “slower junglers” that mix in ganking and let them bank.

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   • RovingBlade says:

     December 6, 2011 at 11:57 am

     I just tested this out and you are correct. It appears there is a hard delay in the game that prevents banking from starting before ~4:10.

     Reply
9. well says:

   December 5, 2011 at 10:11 pm

   Well, single targets gank harder, dont they?

   Reply
   • Anonymous says:

     December 5, 2011 at 11:05 pm

     Harder than Udyr? Not many.

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10. Numbat says:

    December 5, 2011 at 10:45 pm

    Banking is a complete non-effect. Even if VC is correct it still takes 2 minutes for the banking process to complete which means leaving a camp up for 3 minutes gives you 4 gold and 30 xp, i.e. no benefit.

    New jungle is terrible for new players. There’s no obvious time to gank because you can’t clear the jungle. You eagerly want to gank but doing so can rapidly put you behind a farming jungler, so the only motivation to gank is lane/map control which are nebulous objectives that are really hard to judge.

    Moreover, low level junglers can’t actually clear it fast enough to make the jungle any *more* worthwhile than it was before (being able to clear with no runes/masteries is a far cry from being better off). Terrible changes overall.

    Reply
11. mintberry says:

    December 5, 2011 at 11:11 pm

    Honestly, aoe junglers in the old jungle were even more powerful. They could clear their own jungle and then have enough time to steal camps from the enemy. At least that was my experience of jungling Olaf/Udyr against junglers like WW and GP.

    I feel like nobody really noticed it because in low Elo no one ever counterjungled to begin with. Or if they did, they would generally end up falling behind as much as the enemy.

    In the new jungle, aoe junglers no longer need to counterjungle single target junglers, as those will get underleveled anyway. This kind of makes jungle boring and less accessible

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12. bootsywinks says:

    December 6, 2011 at 9:31 am

    To be certain, these jungle changes will encourage differing play and alterations to the dominant meta of Season 1.

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13. Ultros says:

    December 6, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Clear times are a valid criticism of which junglers are best, but many other factors come into play as well.

    If you play Phoenix Udyr, you may clear fastest, but your ganks aren’t as deadly as Tiger Udyr for example.

    If you play Shyvana, you may clear like a beast, but your dragon control won’t be as strong as a Fiddle or Warwick.

    Nocturne may not clear super fast, but he is ridiculous at counter jungling now.

    The mastery changes have made jungling far more flexible. As long as you’re aware of the champion you select’s strengths and weaknesses, you’ll figure it out.

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